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Lopalong wrote: [View Post]

Table-less, Mmmm!

You're going to find that one hell of a workout with nested templates etc, and not only that, mods and extras would have to re-written just for one theme, and certainly not something I would be interested in doing.

Consider also that some .php core files contain markup as well.

But! if it keeps you happy - Keep doing it.  


Yes, I noticed it'll be difficult to make it all tableless but I'll make what I can. The thing is that I already have most of the files I use in my site tableless but since everyone's webpage is different it won't always work the same. Well, I'll just keep editing files and updating the template to make it more compatible with different configurations but I think mods will have to wait. After all is free to use for those who want it.

I haven't yet looked at the php files...hope it's not a big problem...
Oh and it's very sad that it just won't validate but ok, it looks well and I already cleaned up the other errors on index and forum.
 




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About "tableless" I will express here my thoughts as well...

  • Tableless is good where it avoids unnecessary code in content where tables are not needed
  • Fully tableless is not something I would like to have... if a content is related to a dataset from a DB, then the most obvious way to output it is via table... there is no reason to avoid tables at all.
  • Tables should not be used just as a design container.
  • If you are going to re-design an existing template into a tableless one, first of all just try to remove only the tables and nested tables which are there for design purposes...


If you are going to remove useless table from the standard design, I will be happy to remove them from the original code as well... just open a new topic for that and suggest me what you would change.
 




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Mighty Gorgon wrote: [View Post]
About "tableless" I will express here my thoughts as well...
  • Tableless is good where it avoids unnecessary code in content where tables are not needed
  • Fully tableless is not something I would like to have... if a content is related to a dataset from a DB, then the most obvious way to output it is via table... there is no reason to avoid tables at all.
  • Tables should not be used just as a design container.
  • If you are going to re-design an existing template into a tableless one, first of all just try to remove only the tables and nested tables which are there for design purposes...


As you say on your first point, divs help to make pages smaller and less complicated by removing unnecessary tags. I don't intend to remove all tables, for example the output of search results or memberlists is displayed fine with tables. But there are many tables that only have design purposes and sometimes no purpose at all. For example many blocks are enclosed in a table that is useless. Instead of having a table for every block, which has it's own styling (attributes like colspan) and need lots of tags (table,tr,td,yhead,tbody,etc) you can have a simple div aligned to the center to get the same result. That way, your style will be fully controlled by the CSS making restyling easy, your pages will load faster and they can have a better SEO behaviour.

Mighty Gorgon wrote: [View Post]
About "tableless" I will express here my thoughts as well...
If you are going to remove useless table from the standard design, I will be happy to remove them from the original code as well... just open a new topic for that and suggest me what you would change.

I don't understand quite well what you mean but if you ask for my opinion I think at least the blocks tables and the main containing table should be removed but I don't really know How all other files work and what effect that would have. Also, as Lopalong said, Mods could be troubling when changing the main design.
 




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elpulgas wrote: [View Post]

I don't understand quite well what you mean but if you ask for my opinion I think at least the blocks tables and the main containing table should be removed but I don't really know How all other files work and what effect that would have. Also, as Lopalong said, Mods could be troubling when changing the main design.


I think MG is saying if you do find any tables that can be removed and replaced with DIV for example then make a new topic with the changes and he will look at it...

With regards to mods.. as the template system in ICY is changing with every release I make the necessary changes to the mods... as I only use the default template when making a mod it makes no difference to me but if other templates are being used then there is that issue but I would help someone to fit it into their template either way...

just my five cents..

   
 




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Mods and themes for Icy Phoenix 1.3

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Last edited by DWho on Thu 06 Aug, 2009 15:07; edited 1 time in total 
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DWho

maybe we close the quotes ???
 




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spydie wrote: [View Post]
DWho

maybe we close the quotes ???


thanks... good to see your are checking my posts....    
 




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Mods and themes for Icy Phoenix 1.3

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if anyone is interested in my templates I will upgrade them to Icy 2.0.
 
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LOL

I check every new post.

somebody might post something interessting
 




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DWho wrote: [View Post]
elpulgas wrote: [View Post]

I don't understand quite well what you mean but if you ask for my opinion I think at least the blocks tables and the main containing table should be removed but I don't really know How all other files work and what effect that would have. Also, as Lopalong said, Mods could be troubling when changing the main design.


I think MG is saying if you do find any tables that can be removed and replaced with DIV for example then make a new topic with the changes and he will look at it...

Yes I was intending exactly this!

When you find some code that could be rewritten in a more efficient way, feel free to suggest me the change, and I may consider to change it in Icy Phoenix.

DWho wrote: [View Post]
With regards to mods.. as the template system in ICY is changing with every release I make the necessary changes to the mods... as I only use the default template when making a mod it makes no difference to me but if other templates are being used then there is that issue but I would help someone to fit it into their template either way...

Well, let me spend some words on this, since it is not the first time that this issue is raised after 1.3 release.

All the changes I did to the template system were intended to improve it and make it more flexible for designers, and I strongly believe that the goal has been reached... If we do not consider FK themes and Lopalong ones, we had only few themes released for Icy Phoenix 1.2 or lower, while after only 20 days from the release we already have some good and nice templates for 1.3 and I'm really happy with that.

The new template system is designed to provide designers with a basic framework which they could decide to use entirely or partially: this means that you can design a new template just by editing a CFG file, a couple of CSS and images without taking care of tpl files which could fit many design layout without the necessity to edit them. Not only this will also avoid designers to update their styles when original tpls are edited.

Again on the point... a new style could also be designed from scratch by creating all needed tpl files, so the designer could obtain a brand new layout, but this means of course that the style should be updated if some core vars change or will be added into the package, but that is the price to pay with ANY platform and not only with Icy Phoenix... This stands for phpBB 3, WordPress, Joomla and so on...

Having said that, I'm not planning to change the way this new system work as I'm quite happy with it and I'm testing it from over one year now on several sites.

Of course I could change some original TPLs but that doesn't mean that designers should upgrade their styles unless a new TPL var is added or modified... and that it is not happening very often (just check templates changes over SVN to have a quick idea on that).

Currently the only thing which I'm not happy with the style system is that some HTML code is still in PHP files. Every time I come to an HTML code in PHP file I'm going to remove it and add it to the template if that is possible and would not require too much complication.

Finally I would like to speak about some core CSS classes. Unfortunately there is no easy way to assign dynamic classes via TPL only (or better... there is a way but that would require many files to be recoded) and that is the reason why some core classes should still exist in any new template, such as "rowX" or "XXX-new" for example.

Just to recap all: I'm happy with the new template system, I'm not planning to change anything in the core style code, I will just fix bugs and hardcoded tags where needed, I won't add new TPL vars in this version unless strictly needed (or a new feature is added).
 




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I have splitted the topic because I want to keep these things separate and visible.
 




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I love the new template system it is easy and straight forward....

any new styles  i creat are always based on the default theme for icy 1.3 and you can change individual files on the fly anyway and  still keep the  default template system... what ever is coded for default icy styles is what I base all mods on... so if all styles are based on that then adding mods is not a problem...

I do like the fact you are removing html code from php files.. will make it a lot easier on me when i change things in my sites...

   
 




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if anyone is interested in my templates I will upgrade them to Icy 2.0.
 
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Mighty Gorgon wrote: [View Post]
Just to recap all: I'm happy with the new template system, I'm not planning to change anything in the core style code, I will just fix bugs and hardcoded tags where needed, I won't add new TPL vars in this version unless strictly needed (or a new feature is added).


I agree wholeheartedly.  

Unless it is decided that in future ALL IPv1.4 templates etc, are going to be modified in part with swapped  tables for divs' then I see little sense in converting anything from the current default script, let alone releasing it for others to use.

(This doesn't include changes to the header and footer obviously.)

IMHO, submitting a theme with so many changes that are not supported in the default styles - Is going to be like trying to mix oil with water when it comes to any type of support.


In short, all themes should be able to support existing mods etc, with suble changes to accommodate the variations between existing themes. And not be of the style that only one person can / will be forced to support because of everyone else's lack of knowledge of one particular style. And neither should they be expected to learn it.
 
 
 
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Well it looks like you thought I was suggesting to change the whole system!  
What I was saying is that tables have many disadvantages in some uses and I would rather replace them with divs. I shall create the topic suggesting which blocks to change but definitely not everything. That's something I'm just doing with my templates and I know it won't be compatible with many things since it's not compatible with how IP is build. Still I offer the template for anyone who wants to use it or edit it but there's no obligation.

I just want to be clear and say that I really like the new template system and didn't intent to change how it works but to build a basis for tableless templates.
 




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I'm working there and I have made many pages.

If you are in my tableless website you can see the login page, the home page (including all the layout) and many blocks.
 




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elpulgas wrote: [View Post]
Well it looks like you thought I was suggesting to change the whole system!  

Not at all...

You have to remember that I'm not native English speaker, so I may not write correctly what I mean... sorry for that.

I never thought you were suggesting a brand new template. What I wanted to say is that if you think that something could be improved by removing tables, I'll be more than happy to fix it in the default template.

I have already removed many tables, but there are still thousands there... and I'm sure not all are useful.

Having said that... feel free to suggest tables to be removed, and I'll consider it.

My whole post wasn't all on this matter and I was also referring to other topics discussed in several topics around the forum... I hope to have cleared out some doubts now.

elpulgas wrote: [View Post]
What I was saying is that tables have many disadvantages in some uses and I would rather replace them with divs. I shall create the topic suggesting which blocks to change but definitely not everything. That's something I'm just doing with my templates and I know it won't be compatible with many things since it's not compatible with how IP is build. Still I offer the template for anyone who wants to use it or edit it but there's no obligation.

I just want to be clear and say that I really like the new template system and didn't intent to change how it works but to build a basis for tableless templates.

This was already clear to me... but having written it again makes things even clearer.

Thanks for your contribution, and maybe you and Federico could share your code each other and trying to create a brand new template which doesn't rely on tables for design purpose.
 




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tableless.zip
Description: .tpl Tableless 
Download
Filename: tableless.zip
Filesize: 6.41 KB
Downloaded: 65 Time(s)

 




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